Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? A MyLeftWing Edition

Lawrence of Cyberia wrote the following essay as a comment to a diary at My Left Wing a few days ago. She reproduced it on her site because it was also a suitable response to readers who email her from time to time with questions along the lines of,

How can criticizing a Jewish state not be anti-Semitic?

Lawrence of Cyberia's response (slightly revised to a generic "you") was: I think this question misses the point entirely about why people can be anti-Zionist but not anti-Semitic. And it misses the point because it starts off from a strawman argument (about) why people might be opposed to Zionism. Whether you are a hard Zionist or a soft anti-Zionist, her response is enlightening.

I have never been disappointed by Lawrence's acute logic yet obvious humanism and leanings toward common civil and human rights in government, especially when discussing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This conflict obviously continues because Israel seems incapable of affording ordinary human rights to Palestinians, the same ones that Jews were deprived of throughout modern history. What we find out is that the oppressed can become oppressors, and that ordinary people have flaws they may be unaware of.

Her essay begins here:

On 16 July 2008

What anti-Zionism says is that despite this, despite the millions dead, it was a moral abomination for Jewish people to gather in their traditional home for purposes of self-defense, and self-determination. In other words, after one-third of the entire Jewish population was wiped off the planet for reasons of "race," the Jews are racists for organizing in their own defense.

I'm sure there are anti-Semites who are anti-Zionist, but the logic that you've ascribe to anti-Zionism as a whole is fallacious. That's not what anti-Zionism says. It's what YOU say in order to put words into the mouths of anti-Zionists so that you can make your argument. You're not really writing about why anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic. You're writing about how, from the perspective of someone who accepts the principles of Zionism, regards Zionism as the normative way of looking at Israeli-Palestinian relations (and I would say this is the dominant paradigm in American discourse on Israel), and has really put no time or energy into considering whether there might be logical, rational, non-hateful reasons for opposing political Zionism as it has played out in the creation and history of the state of Israel, then anti-Zionism can be made to look like anti-Semitism.

But to do that you've had to gloss over the key point - the same key point that Zionism has always glossed over: the fact that Palestine had a pre-existing population, 95% of whom (at the time of the first aliyah) happened to be not Jewish, but Muslim and Christian. You imply that the terrible things that Israel has done to the Palestinians are due to bad decisions by various Israeli governments, but that's not true. Palestinians have to be expelled, excluded or at least disenfranchised if you are to create a Jewish state in Palestine, because they happen to form the natural majority there. Expelling hundreds of thousands of them in 1948, and denying equality today to those who remain and whose high birth-rate once again is making them the majority even without the return of the refugees, is simply what you have to do if you are to create a "Jewish and democratic state" in a land where most people happen not to be Jewish.

You ignore this point, and suggest that what people are objecting to is the Jewishness of the people who created Israel, when really there is another logical explanation. Perhaps what people are objecting to is the creation of a self-identified sectarian state that is designed to be a home for one group of people, in a land where another - majority - people already lives, and where that new state can be created only through the dispossession and displacement of the preexisting population. Can you really not imagine that people might object to Zionism because they do not believe that the right of one group to create a Jewish state in Palestine overrides the right of another group not to be expelled or disenfranchised? Or that this opposition is not based on the Jewishness of one of the parties involved, but on the underlying morality of expelling one group from their homes to create a new home for another group? From this perspective, the Jewishness of one of the parties is incidental: it would not be more acceptable if the people involved were creating a Hindu, Buddhist or Martian state in Palestine. The opposition is not about Jewishness, it is essentially about whether a Palestinian is an equal human being to anyone else. It is an affirmation that despite what that early champion of Zionism, Lord Balfour, claimed, Palestinians are not "700,000 Negroes whose views we do not intend to consult on this matter" (see reference below) , but are fully equal human beings whose right not to be forcibly dispossessed is in no way inferior to the right of Zionism to create a "Jewish and democratic state" that by its very definition cannot give full equality to Palestine's non-Jewish majority without ceasing to exist.

(And to use the argument that this displacement of the Palestinians can be justified by the Holocaust is, from a Palestinian, Arab, Muslim or other non-Zionist perspective, not a mitigating factor. It is actually an aggravating factor. Because not only are Palestinians "Negroes" whose rights can be ignored whenever they conflict with Zionism, but they can now be ignored because of the Nazi genocide of European Jewry, for which the Palestinians were not themselves responsible. This is a double whammy of inequality).

If it helps diffuse some of the rancor that dogs discussion of the I/P conflict, think of it this way. Most people in the world were opposed to white rule in South Africa. They weren't opposed because they were "anti-White". When the international community had to decide whether Afrikaners had a right to national self-determination in South Africa, where Afrikaner dominance could be established only by the dispossession, displacement and oppression of the existing indigenous majority and maintained only through the apartheid system of government, it decided overwhelmingly that South Africa had no right to exist as a "white and democratic" state. Outside of the immediate coterie of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, it was self-evident that the right of one ethnic group to exclusive self-determination did not outweigh the right of everybody else to equality. The Afrikaners' self-determination had to be achieved within the context of their South African nationality, which they share with fellow South Africans of all races and religions. It would have been absurd to suggest that anti-apartheid campaigners acted as they did because they were prejudiced against Afrikaners and therefore opposed to the principle of self-determination for Afrikaners. Collectively, they were motivated not by animosity toward Afrikaners, but by the belief that - in a land where other people live too - exclusive self-determination for one group impinges unacceptably on the rights of all the others. The absence of any suggestion that this might be a similar motivation for people who oppose Zionism, rather than the Jewishness of the people who benefit from it - is a huge omission.

As for your point that there have historically been prominent Zionists (you mention Martin Buber) who favored a cooperative relationship with the Palestinians - well that's certainly true. But Martin Buber was not a dominant founding father of the Jewish state. So what does it matter in practice that some individual Zionists were genuinely tolerant of Palestinians, respectful of their rights and troubled (as Buber was) about the morality of creating a Palestinian population in exile in order to solve the plight of a Jewish population in exile, if theirs was not the outlook that predominated on the ground? The dominant founding fathers of the Jewish state were people like Herzl and Ben Gurion, whose dominant brand of Zionism was based on the premise that the Palestinian population could be "spirited away across the border", that the Arab majority had to be reduced to no more than 15% of the population and saw nothing wrong with the "transfer" out of Palestine of the existing population. I'm not sure how relevant it is to cite examples of less exclusivist Zionists when the Zionism of the real world is one that created (and maintains) a Jewish majority in Israel by the forced exclusion of a large part of the non-Jewish population.

In fact I think that referring to the existence of Zionists who had problems with a Zionism that relied on transfer to create a more ethnically-homogeneous state, actually undermines the argument that people who oppose Zionism as it exists on the ground do so because they don't like Jewish people. It relies on a faulty logic that says the only possible vehicle of Jewish nationalism and self-determination is the Ben Gurion kind of Zionism that created the current state of Israel, and that as this is the only possible expression of Jewish self-determination then people who criticize it must do so out of anti-Semitism. But the Zionism of Martin Buber for example, or cultural Zionists like Ahad Ha'am and then Judah Magnes, or modern post-Zionists like Avrum Burg, shows that Zionism at the point of a gun is not the only possible expression of Jewish nationalism; and that even among some Jewish Zionists there was always an understanding that realizing Jewish self-determination by creating a "Jewish state" in Palestine raised legitimate moral (and practical) concerns, which led them to try to think of ways that Jewish self-determination and nationalism might be realized without requiring the expulsion or destruction of the existing people and culture in Palestine.

Overall, I would say the problem is that the old one-liner, "Earthquake in Peru: is it good for the Jews?", is meant to be a joke, but you treat it as if it is the baseline for how everybody is allowed to think of Zionism. You have no right to assume that if people oppose anything that involves Jewish people it must be because their anti-Semitism is showing through. Yet in the way you have (mis)represented the motivations of anti-Zionists, you did just that. You don't consider that there can be perfectly legitimate opposition to Zionism from both Jews and non-Jews that arises not from anti-Semitism - not from anything to do with Jewishness at all - but from the belief that it is problematic to create a state for one group of people in a land that already has a people and a culture, which will have to be destroyed to create a Jewish state there. This destruction is not, as you suggest, the result of some bad decisions by successive Israeli governments, it is simply the only way to create a Jewish state in Palestine. I disagree fundamentally with Benny Morris, but when he identified the central issue of the conflict as the need to break (Palestinian) eggs so that you can make the (Israeli) omelet he was at least being honest enough to say out loud the unpalatable reality that most people who speak about I/P issues from a Zionist POV simply ignore: the Palestinians refused and still refuse to give their consent to a project that requires they take the part of the eggs in someone else's omelet.

You are talking about Zionism in the partial, one-sided way we are used to hearing it discussed in U.S. discourse. It is only about Jewishness and anti-Semitism, in which Palestinians have a walk-on "humanitarian" part (when you make your obligatory nod to their suffering, which you attribute to bad government decisions). What is completely missing from your discussion of Zionism is any sense that the Palestinian people are equal players in this scenario, whose individual human rights and collective national rights are as deserving of respect as anybody else's, and who might just have a right to self-determination that does not involve having created in their midst and against their will an ethnic/religious-based state that by its very nature requires their own majority status to be diminished or denied. By glossing over what political Zionism did and does - and absolutely had to do - in order to create and maintain a "Jewish and democratic state" in a land where the natural majority was (and is) not Jewish, you are simply finding a more wordy way of treating Palestine as "a land without a people for a people without a land".

It has been said before: "a Jewish and democratic state" is an oxymoron, but a tragic one in which Palestinians have and still suffer from its impossible creation.

Another excellent essay on the same topic by Lawrence of Cyberia is called: Palestinians Are Nobody's Negroes.

Thanks, Diane. You never disappoint.



Display:


Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (2.00 / 1)

Thank you for the links. The second in particular did an excellent job of explaining opposition to Zionism.


by Mobar on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 04:10:13 PM EST

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

Hmm, I understand where you are coming from but I suggest you use a different term than "anti-Zionist" for what you espouse.  Zionism has positive connotations for a lot of people - the struggle for a Jewish homeland that has lasted for millennia.

To me, saying you are "anti-Zionist" is kind of like saying you are "anti-Civil Rights".  Why don't you come up with a new phrase like "Palestinian Political Equality" or something that everyone can relate to and support and doesn't seem to attack the Jewish cause like the current terminology does?


by mikes101 on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 04:14:37 PM EST

Interesting... (none / 0)

I think of Zionists as at best blind to  the suffering they cause others and at worst just plain evil.  Zionist seems to me as relevant to Jewish as Aryan Brotherhood is to Caucasian.


by tonedevil on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 04:54:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Interesting... (none / 0)

Considering someone else "evil" is the first step towards becoming a neo-con, I think.

Maybe you need to do some homework:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Surely there is some suffering that modern-day Zionists are blind to, but I don't think Palestinian terrorist organizations are above reproach either.  To equate Zionists to Nazis or the KKK is to lack an understanding of history.

Again, I think Zionism has many positive political connotations of "standing in support with the Jewish people and the people of Israel".  If you are looking to cause controversy and get nowhere with it then go ahead and say you are anti-Israel or anti-Zionist.  If you are looking to help the Palestinian people, then say you are for "equal rights for Palestinians" and point out specific things that can be done now to help Palestinians while also keeping in mind that the citizens of Israel are human beings as well, the vast majority of whom have done nothing wrong and would like to live in peace just as much as the next person.


by mikes101 on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 05:14:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You caught me... (none / 0)

I'm a neocon.  In all actuality I find you to be a bit of a scold and rather quick to put words in someones mouth, or keyboard in this case.  Did I ever say that Palestinian terrorist organizations are above reproach?  Your "maybe you need to do your homework"  quip is a sign of a smug bastard as well.  You think I never heard of Zionism before?  You think I am a miscreant twelve year old who needs your guidance?
Yes I understand that citizens of Israel are human beings, mercy me I've even met some of these humans.  Displacing one population of humans with another is bothersome to me, regardless of how badly some completely other population of humans treated those doing the displacing.
by tonedevil on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 05:34:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You caught me... (none / 0)

>>In all actuality I find you to be a bit of a scold and rather quick to put words in someones mouth

Well, I find you quick to consider yourself an "anti-Zionist" without understanding how that comes off to the vast majority of people.

>>You think I am a miscreant twelve year old who needs your guidance?

If you are equating Israel and Zionism with the Aryan Brotherhood, yes, you need help.

>> Displacing one population of humans with another is bothersome to me, regardless of how badly some completely other population of humans treated those doing the displacing.

I agree, and I am sorry that our founding fathers kicked the American Indian off their land.  But I don't see how that helps us move forward.  Certainly saying that I am "anti-American" is a bit extreme and counter-productive, isn't it?  Now you've just pissed off a whole bunch of Americans and done nothing to help your cause.


by mikes101 on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 05:40:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Interesting... (none / 0)

Thanks for your viewpoint.

However, I don't think it helps things along to call Palestinians terrorists, anymore than it was valid to call French or Italian partisans terrorists after their occupation by Germany.

Palestine is an occupied land, if you were not aware of that fact. And it has been occupied since the ethnic cleansing of 1948, when two thirds of the Palestinians were clear forceably from their homes and land in over 470 villages and towns in what is now Israel. Furthermore, the military occupation that began in 1967 of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and formally Gaza makes the Palestinians resisters, just like the French and Italians.

If you are referring to the intentional killing of civilians as terrorism (and that is not really part of the formal definition), then certainly the Israels military is a terrorist organization well beyond what the Palestinians have done in retaliation of the murders of their civilians.

But perhaps worse is that use of the term terrorism conforms to just how Israel has been attempting to frame the IP conflict since 2001: Palestinians terrorists, Israelis victims, in spite of the ongoing occupation. Here a bit from the documentary list in my signature below (click and learn what I am talking about).

Robert Jensen, Professor of Journalism, University of Texas-Austin: "In contrast to the international press, in American media, there is a reversal of cause and effect in that the occupation is framed as a response to the suicide bombings. All of the Palestinian actions are attacks and Israel actions retaliation, is meaningful. Retaliation suggests a defensive stance against violence initiated by someone else. It places a responsibility for the violence on the party provoking the retaliation. In other words, Palestinian violence like suicide bombings is seen as cause and the origin of the conflict. Since the September 11 attack on the US, Israel's PR strategy has been to frame all Palestinian actions, violent or not, as terrorism. To the extent that they can do that they have repackaged the illegal occupation as part of the war on terrorism."

It is not just invalid to cast the Palestinians as terrorists. It condones Israel's military occupation and all of the brutality that it has entailed for 41 years now.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 07:16:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Interesting... (none / 0)

I am not calling all Palestinians terrorists.  But some Palestinians commit acts of violence, and these acts are as reproachable and disgusting as Israeli violence or any political oppression going on from the other side.  If you prefer the term "war" that's fine - but a war has combatants on both sides.

And you cannot omit facts if you want other liberals to take you seriously - you dash off facts about "occupied lands" from 1948, 1967, and 1973 and OMIT the fact that Arab nations attacked Israel each time.  The US has occupied lands after wars in situations such as these - places like Texas and California, which Mexico is never going to get back, like it or not.

Again, I'm really not disagreeing with you so much as I am hopeful that both your side and the Israeli side will tone down the rhetoric and realize that each side has valid claims, and begin more reasonable discussions.  It is not helpful to cast one side, in your case, Israel, as the "evil" side.  


by mikes101 on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 10:32:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (2.00 / 1)

Are You a Zionist?
Everyone  has to decide for themselves if they are a Zionist. If you believe that the Jews are a people, and support the right of the Jews to a national home, and you are willing to stand up for that right when it is challenged, then you can call yourself a Zionist, whether or not you belong to any organized Zionist group or accept any "official" definition, and whether or not you live in Israel or plan to live in Israel - and whether or not you are Jewish.

http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_de finitions.htm

1. Do I believe that the Jews are a people? This question is pretty loaded. I believe it's a religion and a cultural experience. Certainly all jews, secular or observant, have something in common. It's obviously a group. But if someone asked me if I believed that the catholics are a people, I wouldn't be sure what they were asking me. A recognizable group, yes. A "people" deserving of a dedicated homeland? Um, no. The catholic church was a big enough pain in the butt and powerful enough to secure its own plot of land to exercise sovereignty over, but nobody thinks of the Vatican as the homeland of the catholics.

2. Do I support the right of the Jews to a national home? Again, kind of loaded. I support the right of the Jews (and what's up with that definite article anyway?) to live freely. I welcome "the" Jews as my friends, neighbors and fellow citizens (and jewish men are proportionally completely over-represented on my list of admired individuals). I do not, and cannot, support the notion that there is something fundamentally just about an officially "jewish" state. I certainly sympathize with the aspiration. Jews are hardly the first group to appreciate the benefits of homogeniety. And practical reality requires immigration controls. But using the instruments of the state to promote and preserve a religious majority among the citizenry (in fact, denying first class citizenship to the minority) isn't something I'm comfortable with. I don't think it's a noble goal in general, and I sincerely believe it is unsustainable in Israel in particular.

3. Obviously I'm not going to stand up for the right to establish a "jewish" state. But I do stand up for the right to preserve the state of Israel. If people insist that Israel can't be Israel without being officially "jewish," well, I disagree. And if people insist that a refusal to support the notion of an officially "jewish" state is a refusal to support jewish people the world over, I strongly disagree.

If that isn't anti-zionist, what is it? If I don't agree that Israel has a right to exist as a "jewish" state, how can I fit under the umbrella of existing ideas of what zionism is today?


by Mobar on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 05:07:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (2.00 / 1)

Do I support the right of the Jews to a national home? Again, kind of loaded. I support the right of the Jews (and what's up with that definite article anyway?) to live freely. I welcome "the" Jews as my friends, neighbors and fellow citizens (and jewish men are proportionally completely over-represented on my list of admired individuals). I do not, and cannot, support the notion that there is something fundamentally just about an officially "jewish" state. I certainly sympathize with the aspiration. Jews are hardly the first group to appreciate the benefits of homogeniety. And practical reality requires immigration controls. But using the instruments of the state to promote and preserve a religious majority among the citizenry (in fact, denying first class citizenship to the minority) isn't something I'm comfortable with.
It promotes and preserves a secular ethnic majority, not a religious one. It goes back to how "Jewishness" is many things--a religion, an ethnicity, and an identity. In this case, you don't have to be a practicing Jew to qualify for the Right of Return, you just need to be of Jewish ethnic descent. The concept of a Jewish state is equally as just or unjust as the concept of a Palestinian state or an Irish state or a Japanese state. It may just be that this is an alien concept to Americans who are used to growing up in a country with no dominant ethnicity.
Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 05:20:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Catholicism is also an identity (2.00 / 1)

People identify themselves as "cradle catholics," "recovering catholics," and "fallen away catholics." People retain a catholic identity long after they stop practicing and believing in the catholic faith. And catholics spent centuries fighting for the state to endorse and protect the catholic church and its interests. There are countries that are heavily associated with catholicism - Ireland being a great example. It would be odd for Ireland to stop being so catholic, but would it be an essential threat to being Irish? Only if you define "Irish" as being limited to one religion.


by Mobar on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 05:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Catholicism is also an identity (none / 0)

Catholicism is not an ethnicity.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligi ous


by mikes101 on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 05:59:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and Samaritans, Parsis, (none / 0)

 Assyrians, Nasranis, Yazidi and Mandaeans don't have their own countries. Next?


by Mobar on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 06:19:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and Samaritans, Parsis, (none / 0)

Neither do Palestinians, for that matter.


We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies.
by Jess81 on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 07:55:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and Samaritans, Parsis, (none / 0)

The point is, the Jewish community is the largest of these ethnoreligious groups, and they DO have a state already.  

If you have specific problems with something Israel is doing, that would be worth discussing, but whether they are officially a Jewish state or just "de facto" like the US is a "de facto" Judeo Christian state is really pretty pointless to me.

At the end of the day, however, do I believe that there should be special provisions in Israel so that Jewish people from around the world should be able to return to a homeland where they can be protected?  Yes.

Maybe you feel differently when there are 500 million or 3 billion of you Christians or Muslims or whatever - with plenty of your own states which are either de-jure or de-facto safe-havens, but when there are less than 20 million of you and nearly half of your European population was decimated the last century, you view these things a little differently.


by mikes101 on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 10:44:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and Samaritans, Parsis, (none / 0)

Simply put you have taken an exceptionalist point of view that Jews should have the right to take land from another people, to ethnically cleanse Palestinians forcibly from their homes and property, essentially to colonize their lands if necessary. Well, actually that did and is happened. But I don't believe all Jews think that they are excepted from moral-ethical principles and actions toward anyone, that there is a you and us, and that different ethic or moral rules apply.

If that were true of Jews then it should certainly be true of other ethnic groups who feel excepted in order to redress past wrongs. Take the Serbs. Didn't the Turks invade and then take lands belonging to them. Wasn't that history the justification of the ethnic cleansing of the Bosnians less than a decade ago? Or is it that we have an exception among the exceptions, Israel only, and that the Serbs were not justified in their actions?


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Sun Jul 27, 2008 at 08:10:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

I think you are mis-reading the question.  I would argue that the United States is in many ways a Judeo-Christian nation - there are many examples of this - whether it is federal holidays, prayers in public places, gifts of stadiums for use as mega-churches in the South, statements on our currency, crosses on our roadways, or what have you.

As a secular person, I can understand saying "I do not support the rights for a Christian national home".  I think all vestiges of religion should be eliminated from government in any way possible.  But, imagine instead "I support the rights for an American Indian national home".  Hmm, that sounds better - because this is a historically persecuted group of people.  The Jewish people and Israel is the same scenario - Zionism is the support of a people and a state that needs to exist because of historical oppression.

All citizens in Israel are equal before the law, just as in the US.  Yes, the Palestinian problem exists, just as the US still has problems with rights for illegal immigrants and other refugees.  Just as the US still has problems with equal rights for all of its citizens.

But do you support the right of the US to exist?  I know I do.  I just want to make it better.


by mikes101 on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 05:22:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

I disagree that the state needs to exist because of historical oppression. I can understand why people believed that at the time of its formation, but I can't agree with it today. Jewish people can be safe in the modern world without the existence of an officially Jewish state.

The American Indian comparison is odd. The vestiges of american indian sovereignty exist because our forefathers lacked the stomach to commit genocide, so they kept resettling the "natives" into unwanted territory. No one has offered American Indians a "national home." Certainly not of the type that the zionists claim. We stole their land, pushed them around, and basically left them to rot on reservations. Those reservations continue to exist because of the recognition that we did kinda/sorta/maybe take their land and they deserved compensation, not because they "need to exist because of historical oppression."

And of course the US is a Judeo-Christian nation, but I'm violently opposed to any plan to make it officially a Judeo-Christian nation. And I'm a christian. De jure and de facto matter. The US is also a majority white nation. I no more support the instruments of state working directly to preserve the "judeo-christian" nature of our demographics than to preserve our "whiteness."


by Mobar on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 06:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

The American Indian analogy is rediculous. The Palestinian communities were stable and existed in many cases for over a thousand years, and consistent of homes and fmarlands and orchards, villages and towns, with all their assets like governments, school systems, and the rest.

A more direct comparison is provided by Lawrence of Cyberia: the South African Apartheid model in which white supremacy provided the basis, and justified the ethnic cleansing of 1948 and the one that has continued since 1967.

That's her point: Zionism means Jewish supremacy and rights that exclude nonJews from participating equally in Israeli society. She asks: Is it anti-Semitic to be against Zionism, if that is what it entails?


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 07:51:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are still ignorant on the... (none / 0)

...subject of native americans...
...you should take some time off from reading PLA and Hamas talking points and educate yourself about where you are living, on land stolen from native americans. Or maybe it is really time for you stand with your people in the west bank.
John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 12:11:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

Again, I am not entirely opposed to what you are saying.  But the cause that helped create Israel in 1948 was Zionism.  You apparently sympathize with that cause, which created the current state of Israel.

Therefore, to proclaim oneself "anti-Zionist" is not helpful.  That's really my main point.  I think calling oneself anti-Zionist does have anti-Semitic and anti-Israel connotations.  Why can someone not just be pro-equality, pro Palestinian, or some other more neutral term?

And before you say that the terms don't matter - I say yes they do - language and the history of words is important.  Saying you are "anti civil-rights" or "anti American" would be similarly counter-productive.

I am open to ideas to help the Arab and Palestinian community achieve equal treatment within Israel.  But I don't appreciate the term "anti-Zionist" and I don't think usage of it will help if you are trying to gain the help of the US, Israel, or the Jewish community - which are all important parties in order for any Palestinian gains to be achieved.

Also, some of the wording by the author of this diary - that Israel is an "occupier", is similarly unhelpful.  The people who live in Israel today are inhabitants of a world created by their grandparents.  This is no more helpful than calling present-day Germans "Nazis".

The question is, as in Iraq, not how we got into the situation, but "what now?"  Name-calling and historical revisionism on each side is not the way forward.


by mikes101 on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 10:22:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

A few points. Reading between the lines of your comments to this diary, I suspect I give Israel more credit for its own existence than you do. Israel exists not as reparations for the holocaust or as a gift from the UN. It came to be the old-fashioned way - by capture. It continues to exist within its current borders because it has continually proven the ability to control the land and defend it from invaders. That is what makes a nation.

Secondly, I understand your point about language. But I thought the linked articles (mostly the second one) did a good job of demonstrating that in our current way of discussing Israel there are certain viewpoints that can't be expressed because the "acceptable" language itself prevents it. Without repeating what I've written elsewhere in these comments, what is the acceptable way to express my belief that a majority jewish state isn't necessary for the continued existence of the jewish people?

I've purposefully avoided discussing the Palestinians in these comments. My belief about the safety of the jewish people in the absence of an officially jewish state isn't based on anything to do with the Palestinians. I would argue quite strenously that to the extent Israel is to be maintained as a majority jewish state, a thriving palestinian state is a necessary condition of that.

I haven't touched the arguments of where Israeli rights and Palestinian rights conflict and need to be resolved. I have addressed one of the basic premises of Israel - jews are not safe in the world without an officially jewish state. To put my position into "pro-palestinian" or "pro-equality" is to deny my position a place in the conversation at all. I understand that putting it under "anti-zionist" isn't the smoothest path to take (trust me, I've had this discussion with jewish friends) and I generally try to avoid labels all together. But everyone wants labels. How would you label me in a more neutral fashion? When it comes to the IP conflict, I generally label myself as pro-civilians who just want to live their lives and raise their families. From a human rights perspective, it's easy for me to consider the jews and the palestinians on an equal footing. From a personal standpoint, I'm far more culturally attached to the jews.  Where's the label for me?


by Mobar on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 10:33:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

>>Without repeating what I've written elsewhere in these comments, what is the acceptable way to express my belief that a majority jewish state isn't necessary for the continued existence of the jewish people?

I think you can say you are a supporter of "secular democratic states", and fight for that not just in the context of Israel but in the US and in Arab countries that practice sharia or disenfranchise their citizens, or do not have representative democracies.  To call yourself "anti-Zionist" makes it seem like you are looking only at one possible set of injustices when really you are opposed to something that is happening across the world.  Why should Israel be forced to amend itself unilaterally?

Why should Jews feel safe in other countries when you are not talking about how these other countries need to reform as well?

>>Where's the label for me?

Well, if you are talking to a bunch of friends or experts on the subject and you are comfortable with using the term "anti-Zionist" in that context, by all means - go for it.

But on a board like MyDD, or DKos, or other liberal blogs, or in the context of the Democratic party, I think that label is likely to be confusing at best, and harmful at worst.

Also, from the second article, I think both the PLO and Israel should not let talks be impeded by whether Israel needs to be recognized as a "Jewish state" - they should just recognize Israel's right to exist.  If I were negotiating on the Israeli side I would drop that demand.  If I were negotiating on the Palestinian side, I would agree to that precondition in order to move on to more substantive negotiations - the best Palestinian bet is to seek incremental change.


by mikes101 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 11:41:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

To call yourself "anti-Zionist" makes it seem like you are looking only at one possible set of injustices when really you are opposed to something that is happening across the world.  Why should Israel be forced to amend itself unilaterally?

Well, I am anti-sharia and pro-secular democracies in general. But that's not the conversation. I don't think it's fair to say that it looks like I'm ignoring injustices. That's like the wingnuts who claim feminists don't care about women in Afghanistan because they don't raise it in every conversation about feminism.

Your choice of language "amend itself unilaterally" is genuinely odd, like it's being asked to abandon a weapon that remains in the hands of its enemies. Countries progress unilaterally all the time. It's the only way progress happens.

If I were negotiating on the Israeli side I would drop that demand.

I agree. And I thought the point of the second article was that Israel will not do so. The PLO agreed to recognize Israel's right to exist, and it wasn't good enough.

I think we share a great deal in common here and I appreciate you expanding on your points.


by Mobar on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 03:37:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

Reading between the lines of your comments to this diary, I suspect I give Israel more credit for its own existence than you do. Israel exists not as reparations for the holocaust or as a gift from the UN. It came to be the old-fashioned way - by capture.
This is incorrect, at least not directly. The British captured the land from the Ottoman Empire which shortly thereafter ceased to exist. The Israelis did not capture it from the British, it was given to them (though they already owned a significant portion of it having bought it in the late 19th and early 20th centuries).
It continues to exist within its current borders because it has continually proven the ability to control the land and defend it from invaders. That is what makes a nation.
This is correct.
Without repeating what I've written elsewhere in these comments, what is the acceptable way to express my belief that a majority jewish state isn't necessary for the continued existence of the jewish people?
You've already expressed it quite acceptably--"a majority Jewish state isn't necessary for the continued existence of the Jewish people." There's nothing objectionable about saying that. My objection to your comment had to do with your categorical statement that Jews are safe in the modern world, and I disagreed with that. I don't think that Israel is necessary for the protection and continued existence of the Jewish people, nor is it necessarily sufficient for that purpose in the era of nuclear weapons.
I have addressed one of the basic premises of Israel - jews are not safe in the world without an officially jewish state.
That is not one of the basic premises of Israel. The basic premise of Israel is that the Jews are an ethnic group that has the right to exist within its homeland secure in its own identity. You said earlier, essentially, that the Jews are safe if they move to America--well, not all Jews wish to be Americans, and they should not need to be. They should not be forced to suborn their own culture to ours simply because we're willing to take them as a fractional minority of our population. People of Hebrew descent have as much right to a Hebrew homeland as people of Serbian descent have a right to a Serbian homeland, and German to a German homeland, and Australian aboriginal to an Australian aboriginal homeland. And, for that matter, Palestinian to a Palestinian homeland.
Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 12:56:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

Only that country cannot be taken from another people who had been living there for more than a thousand years. This is of course the root of the Israei-Palestinian conflict, it is the root of the 1948 Israeli-Arab War, and the root of all subsequent strife in the region.

And it is not over: the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians continues today, as it has for 41 years, in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

I also hear this alleged fact from time to time: that Jews in Palestine owned most of the land anyway. It was their already. The truth is that in 1948, Jews had managed to purchase only 7% of original Palestine. The remainder was held by Muslim Palestinians, and tiny portions by Druze and Christians and others.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 02:08:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

Only that country cannot be taken from another people who had been living there for more than a thousand years.

You mean like the Jews who were living there before they were driven out by the Romans who were then driven out by the Arabs who then proceeded to live there for a thousand years?

Why is the Palestinian claim to the land legitimate, when it was stolen from the Jews, but the Jewish claim is illegitimate, when it was stolen from the Arabs?

Do you not see the double standard?

I keep harping on this because I want you to see the foolishness of the argument about who "rightfully" owns the land.  Dozens of different peoples, including both the Palestinians and the Jews, have a legitimate claim to the land that Israel comprises.  Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Turkey, Britain--these countries have all controlled the land at some point.

As long as you're arguing the double-standard that Israel does not have a legitimate claim to the land but the Palestinians do, you're not going to be taken seriously by anyone except those who already agree with you.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 02:26:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

Do you not see the double standard?

Not at all. History I am afraid does not flow backwards. The Palestinian have lived in the land for over a thousand year. At the same time, there were always at least a few thousand Jewish inhabitants, mainly living in Jerusalem. As side of spurious "place holding" theories, Jews were never prohibited from living in Palestine, but chose to live in a variety of other places. It was only with Zionist ambitions that the idea of a pure Jewish state came into being. That meant the necessity of dispossession of lands, villages and towns, belonging to the indigenous Palestinians, who had lived there for over a thousand years, something long hypothesized as necessary by the early Zionists. It eventually happened: two thirds of the Palestinian population were ethnically cleansed by force and fear in 1948, many dying along the way.

If you can really find some ethical-moral basis for such a plan or action, please provide it.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Sun Jul 27, 2008 at 08:29:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

Well, let me give you an ethical-moral basis for resolving the issue that arose as Jewish population in Palestine grew. It was Martin Buber's proposal for a binational state, a single state that would encompass the political and social needs of both peoples having rights to the land. Buber offered his proposal to Ben Gurion, but it was brushed aside.

The Zionists had different plans and didn't need a philosopher and humanist telling them what was right or what to do. Forcible transfer of the Palestinian population, "the Arabs," was already in the cards.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Sun Jul 27, 2008 at 08:36:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you for the response (none / 0)

All people have a right to a home. I don't believe there is a fundamental human right to a state devoted to preservation of a majority of your particular ethnicity. That's the problem with "homeland" in an ethnic sense. I believe that moving towards multi-ethnic tolerant societies is good for humanity. Preserving ethnic dominance is understandable and not necessarily bad, I just don't think it's worth taking extreme steps to achieve.


by Mobar on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 03:28:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you for the response (none / 0)

All people have a right to a home. I don't believe there is a fundamental human right to a state devoted to preservation of a majority of your particular ethnicity.

While I tend to agree with that in principle, it's relatively easy for us to say that when we're sitting in countries that already have a natural ethnic majority.  The vast majority of people in France are French, the vast majority of people in Italy are Italian, etc.  So "we" (speaking for most of the world at large, here) reap the benefits of an ethnic-majority society, if any, without having to make preservation of that ethnic majority part of our policy.

Some of that thin veneer of tolerance is starting to strip away from other countries as they find their own ethnic makeup inexorably changing.  France is dealing with a glut of Muslim immigrants, the United States will likely be majority-Hispanic within a few decades, etc., and you're starting to see people get anxious about it and propose that we institute our own ethnic-majority-preserving policies.

I'm not seeking to particularly defend Israel in that, because I agree that we should be working toward a colorblind and more homogeneous world, not a more heterogeneous one, just saying that Israel by far isn't unique in desiring an ethnic-majority homeland, and should not be uniquely criticized for it.

In fact, what makes Israel unique is that they're one of the very few nations whose people survived expulsion from their homeland and long-term diaspora with their culture intact while another people moved into their former home.  Ireland, for example, remained majority-Irish during its people's long diaspora, so after the people started returning there was no need for any policy specifically designed to restore and preserve the previously-existing ethnic majority.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 03:46:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you for the response (none / 0)

Ethnocentricism (broadly defined to encompass ethnicity, race, or religion) can be a pernicious ethic, and was most certainly the source of American Eugenics, segregation, German and Italian Fascism, and Apartheid, and all of the other movements that attempted to put the rights of one people before another. Perhaps the last example we are familiar with was Serbian nationalism, and we know how that turned out.

It is seen in many other places today including Israel.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Sun Jul 27, 2008 at 08:44:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

>>No one has offered American Indians a "national home.

And if the American Indians had wanted one?  Israel did want one, and in 1948 their wish came true.


by mikes101 on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 10:47:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

Like the "tit for tat" theory, the Jewish Nakba, so-called, which allegedly followed the ethnic cleansing of two thirds of the Palestinian population, and over 470 villages and towns, in 1948, the "American Indian" theory is also invalid. Palestine was a country of largely Arab people, the Palestinians, for over a thousand years. There are other theories less frequently offered to justify the ethnic cleansing, like the "place holder" theory, based on the fact that there were always at least a few thousands Jews living in Jerusalem, and the "Roman kicked us out so therefore..." theory, which is self-explanatory. There are probably others.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 11:53:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

My point is, we could go around the world and recognize that the current states are all "unjust" in some form or another.  Certainly the US itself was not created in a just manner - we killed off and expelled all of the Indians.  Yet I don't here you voluntarily giving up your land to an American Indian.  And what excuse do you have?  That this happened a long time ago?  Lame.

Israel is no more an unjust creation than the United States.

The current states are based on the victors of previous wars, genocides, ethnic conflicts, etc.  The Israeli situation is not unique.


by mikes101 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 12:16:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

The "American Indian" theory used to justify the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in 1948 has nothing in common with the Palestinian situation. And everyone, even Bush, knows that. Hence, his call for the military occupation to stop and a severeign Palestinian state be created.

But let me ask you: do you really expect liberal Democrats who honed a new ethnic in 1964 to agree with you, that it is okay to steal another people's lands? What American agrees today with out treatment of Native Americans? It is a new world. We took down Apartheid South Africa twenty years ago. Now why should the white supremacists of South Africa not have their country? And just for a more recent episode of ethnic cleansing, why should the Serbs have been given the ability to build a "Serbian and democratic state" in all of original Surbia, which included Bosnia?

Frankly, I don't know where you are coming from. Get into the 20th century. We went to war twice to take down ethnic cleansers of another kind in Europe and the Far East just 60 years ago.

The absurdity of these justifications could go on and on.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 02:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

But let me ask you: do you really expect liberal Democrats who honed a new ethnic in 1964 to agree with you, that it is okay to steal another people's lands? What American agrees today with out treatment of Native Americans?

That's not the point.

The point is, we are living on land that we stole from the Native Americans approximately 300-400 years ago.  Some of us are living on land we stole from Mexico about 200 years ago.  It was in fact stolen--it was conquered, occupied, subjugated, and absorbed, and its native inhabitants mostly driven out or killed.

So does that mean you believe the Native American nations would be within their rights to take back their land today?  Would Mexico be within its rights to take back California and Texas?  Should the United States be morally obligated to return it?

You may argue, well, the United States has been here for over 200 years now.  We've been living on the land long enough now to call it ours even though we stole it in the first place.

Well, Israel has been there for 60 years.

So where is the magic line drawn?

How many years must a country exist on conquered/stolen land before it becomes the legitimate owner?  Obviously it is somewhere longer than 60 years (because Israel doesn't qualify) but shorter than 200 (because America qualifies) and definitely shorter than 1000 (because Palestine qualifies) but has a statute of limitations of at most 1000 (because, again, Israel doesn't qualify).


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 02:37:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (2.00 / 1)

Jewish people can be safe in the modern world without the existence of an officially Jewish state.

See, I simply don't understand this, though I see it all the time.  "The Holocaust couldn't happen again!  That was the 1930s and 1940s!  That was like, FOREVER ago!  We're all much more civilized now!"

Six million Jews were rounded up and exterminated, and this continued up until 63 years ago.  There are people still alive today who survived through it, who saw it with their own eyes.  That is "modern."

And Germany wasn't some scummy backwater country back then.  Weimar Germany had serious economic problems, which contributed to the rise of National Socialism, but it was also one of the great cultural capitals of Europe, and by consequence, of the world.  Germans in the early to mid 20th century were the pinnacle of "civilized people" in their time.

Don't fool yourself, it could very easily happen again.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 11:05:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

Generically it has, many times while the world stood aside and today stands aside, as in the Darfur genocide.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 06:48:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism? (none / 0)

Indeed so.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 07:35:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The unaddressed presumption (none / 0)

In my experience, this is what it comes down to. One of the impulses of the original zionist movement, made even more urgent by the holocaust, was the idea that jews could only be safe if they had their own country that they controlled (preferably by majority in a democracy). Although I certainly understand why people in the 19th century through WW2 believed that, I think history has disproven this point. Most of the jewish people who fled europe because of anti-semitism and nazism came to America. And they have been safe here. They included my great-grandmother and her family. All of her relatives that remained in europe did not survive WW2. My grandmother made a trip to Poland in the early 60s and there was literally no trace of the family. So it's not like I think of the holocaust as some remote event.

I don't need to argue that the holocaust could never happen again anywhere. Pogroms happened for a long time before german efficiency took it to the next level. To suggest that you'll always have people who agitate against jews isn't scandalous. But in the U.S., those agitators have no power. If Vegas took odds on the matter, the jews would fall pretty far down the list of minority groups likely to be targeted by the state in the US. Is it possible? In the sense that anything is possible. But it's highly improbable. Believing that jewish people can be safe in America (and other first world nations) certainly does effect my outlook on Israel. Once you believe that, you can see that maintaining a jewish majority in Israel is an understandable aspiration but not the key to the survival of the jewish people. When it's no longer the key to survival, you don't support more extreme measures to maintain it.

People who associate anti-zionism with anti-semitism are those people who think that opposition to (or at least unwillingness to actively support) Isreal being an officially "jewish" state is a willingness to see the jewish people disappear from the face of the earth. As I've tried to demonstrate here, it is possible to prize the continued existence of jewish people without supporting the zionist project. (There are more liberal versions of zionism that I support - mainly anything that promotes jewish culture, but they don't seem to be in play in the current discussions of Israel.)


by Mobar on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 10:13:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The unaddressed presumption (none / 0)

In many ways, many could not help but agree with your appeal for a way to bring a halt to the many forms of antiSemitism that utlimately led to the Holocaust, or even earlier, the pogroms of Eastern Europe.

But the way to do that is not through Zionism in the form that led to the dispossession of another entire people of their lives and land. That's the point.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 02:27:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Mobar...you are wasting your time with shergald (none / 0)

If you check out his links you will see that he is tied to some unsavory, hateful anti-Jewish organizations and sites. Do a google search on "shergald" and "cabal" and you will see a pattern emerge.
My guess is that is a palestinian american intellectual with some level of guilt for living in the safety of the US instead of joining with his people in the West Bank or Gaza. That's just a guess...but certianly you should know he has been banned from dKos and insists that the Google founders are part of an international Zionist conspiracy. I really suggest you check him out.
John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 12:20:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No need for me to spend time (none / 0)

checking out shergald. The diary didn't really include much from him, I was responding to the cited material, which I think was well-expressed. And I think it's important for people like me to speak up in discussions like this to avoid the cartoon impression that everyone varying from the Likud line hates Israel.

Google as a zionist conspiracy, eh? Just one more reason to love the Jews!


by Mobar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 02:29:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No need for me to spend time (none / 0)

Believe crap like this

Google as a zionist conspiracy

and you will surely not come back. However, I would suggest to people who conflate notions like Zionism and Jewishness or Likud and Jewishness, look up some of the left wing peace groups that had their origin in the likes of "Not In My Name," small organizations that eventually came together to become Jewish Voice for Peace. Look them up before you board the train that is taking Zionism into the land of extreme absurdity, and people who are willing to be your escort.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sigh. (2.00 / 3)

But to do that you've had to gloss over the key point - the same key point that Zionism has always glossed over: the fact that Palestine had a pre-existing population, 95% of whom (at the time of the first aliyah) happened to be not Jewish, but Muslim and Christian.

Which again ignores the fact that the Jews were themselves driven out of Israel almost two thousand years ago and forcibly replaced by those Muslims and Christians.

Do they not have the same right to their homeland that you're saying the Palestinians do?

It also glosses over the fact that at no time in modern history has there been an independent state of "Palestine."  The Holy Lands traded hands back and forth between Muslims and European Christians for centuries in the Middle Ages before coming to rest as part of the Ottoman Empire, which it remained a part of until it was conquered by the British, which it remained governed by until the British ceded it to the UN who gave it to the Jewish settlers.

So there are a lot of people who might claim "ownership" of that land, and probably the most legitimate claim belongs to Turkey.

This is what I don't get about anti-Zionism.  It's one thing to criticize how Israel treats the Palestinians, but to say that the Jews have no right to be there is historically blind.  They have more right than anyone to be there, their claim is much older.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 05:12:42 PM EST

Re: Sigh. (none / 0)

Unfortunately, history does not flow backwards. If that were true, then certainly Greece would have every right to invade Italy and regain its jewels of sea: Syracuse and Neopolis, among many other smaller cities and regions.

Secondly, it is not clear how the Palestinian Arabs, who lived in the region for over a thousand years, could be asked to leave, since they were now the principle owners of the land. Jews who emigrated to Palestine, in 1948 collectively owned only 7% of the land. No one begrudged them their ownership. But it is not clear how the Zionist could take by force land which did not belong to Jews and declare it Jewish land, and shortly afterward, part of the state of Israel. For that matter, the UN never intended that Jews take Palestinian lands when it declared recognition of the state of Israel. As everyone know, the UN passed resolution 194 only six months later, the right of the ethnically cleansed Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and land, which they owned. Israel's response is well known.

And ever since, Israel has had a difficult if not hostile relationship with the UN. Wonder why?


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 07:27:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh. (none / 0)

Unfortunately, history does not flow backwards. If that were true, then certainly Greece would have every right to invade Italy and regain its jewels of sea: Syracuse and Neopolis, among many other smaller cities and regions.

So the Palestinian Arabs who were exiled from their home and have been living in diaspora for three generations do still have an ancestral right to their home, but the Jews who were conquered and then slaughtered and exiled by the Romans and spent nearly two thousand years in diaspora do not still have an ancestral right to their home.

Could you tell me where that line is drawn?  Is it a specific number of generations, say seven?  If Israel keeps up the occupation for another hundred years, two hundred years, does their claim to the land then become valid?

For that matter, the UN never intended that Jews take Palestinian lands when it declared recognition of the state of Israel.

In other words, you are defining the "Palestine" that Israel is occupying to be the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Before 1967, the West Bank was part of Jordan and the Gaza Strip was part of Egypt.  Neither of them were part of a country called Palestine.  If this is the argument you are making, you should be demanding that these areas of land be ceded to Jordan and Egypt, just like the Golan Heights were returned to Syria and the Sinai Peninsula returned to Egypt, not that they be returned to Palestine which has never historically existed.

Don't get me wrong, I support a two-state solution, I support the creation of a contiguous, viable Palestinian state alongside Israel, because that is the most practical and best solution.  But you're not talking practicality here, you're talking right and wrong, and who is the rightful owner of what.

Well, if Israel is not the rightful owner of the West Bank and Gaza, then Jordan and Egypt are, respectively.  So we should return them to those countries, and the Palestinians will go back to being stateless or second-class citizens of Jordan and Egypt instead of stateless or second-class citizens of Israel.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 10:52:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh. (none / 0)

No, I was discussing original Palestine and was referring to the 7-800,000 Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed from their homes and lands in over 470 villages and towns. Jordan occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt the Gaza Strip during the 48 war. Prior to that, those areas were included in British and UN discussions and plans for partition.

Where do you draw the line? Good question, except that over the millenia a few thousand Jews have always lived in Jerusalem, and I don't believe there was ever any prohibition against Jewish emigration to Palestine. The predominantly Muslim people in Arab countries were tolerant of Judaism. Anti-Semitism was largely a Christian phenomenon.

The moral question here is not whether Jews lacked rights to live in Palestine, but whether they had the right to eject another people from their country of a thousand years or so and replace them (Zionism)? You seem to be saying, yes they do. Others would say, not.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 07:10:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh. (none / 0)

Ethnically cleansed?  Are you frigging kidding me?

The Jews bought the land they first attained, and then they were attacked.  The Palestinians did not help, they did not help their country men, they did not help fight the invaders, because they participated in that invasion.

The Jews would have been completely annhialated by the invading army, but that doesn't matter does it?

Because they're jews, right?

That's why people perceive certain parts of Anti-zionism as anti-semitic.  Because you completely ignore that the Jews were attacked.  They were not invaders, they were not crusaders.

Did you know that an illegal invasion is a war crime?  Did you know that every country that participated in the first War is guilty of that?

I'm sure you've heard this before, but of course I'm also sure it matters little to you.. But the Native Americans-- who were actually ethnically cleansed-- have far more right to your land than the Palestinians do to all of Israel.

So, the moment you pack up your things and return to the Eurasian/African country of your ancestry, I might start listening to you and taking you seriously.

But so long as you continue to target the Jews in this special way, so long as you continue to assert that because they're Jews, they go by different rules than you..

I will happily, with full confidence, call you. A  raging.  Complete.  Ignorant.  Anti-semite.

Enjoy your racism.

Oh, and by the way.  Suggestion?  Read some material from the opposing viewpoint before you go spouting off this trash.  Hey, since Jews can't be trusted, why don't you start with Sartre's Anti-Semite and Jew.  One of the best books I've ever read about anti-semitism, and it was written by a Gentile.  Who knew :)


by mrrara on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 08:50:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ethnic Cleansing 101 (none / 0)

So your remarks also apply to Jewish peace activists, like self-hating Jews?

Read and learn:

Happy Nakba Day

....is an oxymoron.


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Roughly interpreted as the "catastrophe" in Arabic, it is the day Palestinians living in Israel, the Occupied Palestinian Territories, refugee camps around the Middle East, and wherever they live around the world commemorate as the day they lost their ancestral home in original Palestine. Many people, including Jewish Israelis, Jews living around the world, and non-Jews are ignorant of the Nakba, and the history that preceded and followed the birth of Israel. The day on which the Nakba is remembered is the day Palestinians think about the roughly 800,000 Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed from original Palestine, their homeland for over a thousand years. March 10 is significant for another reason: it is the date their demise was planned.


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The Institute for Middle East Understanding (IMEU) recently announced that the Israeli founder of Zochrot, Hebrew for "Remembering," Eitan Bronstein, along with Muhammad Jaradat of the Badil Resource Center for Palestinian Residency and Refugees' Rights, will be on a speaking tour in the U.S. from March 25-April 7. Eitan Bronstein has worked for years to tell the story many do not believe. He founded Zochrot in order to educate people of the truth and to raise awareness among Israelis about the Nakba, or "Catastrophe."


"When it comes to the Nakba and what was there before Israel was created, it's a big hole, a black hole and people don't know how to deal with it," he said. "It's perhaps the most important period of our life in this region and it's not really known."


As an introduction, IMEU reported that last week, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak sought legal opinions on the possibility of expelling Palestinian civilians from northern Gaza. They note that attempts to drive Palestinians out of their homes and homeland actually began in earnest 60 years ago today. Zionist leaders met in Tel Aviv on March 10, 1948 and adopted a plan to expel as many Palestinians as possible from their homes before and immediately after Israel declared independence on May 14.


Here is the reality that remains hidden from view. March 10 marks the date on which Plan Dalet was adopted.


The Meeting at the "Red House



1. What is Plan Dalet?


Sixty years ago today Zionist political and military leaders met at the "Red House" in Tel Aviv and agreed to Plan Dalet, which called for the systematic expulsion of Palestinians from areas sought for the soon-to-be-founded state of Israel. The plan led to what Palestinians refer to as the Nakba.


At that time, Jews owned only about seven percent of the land in Palestine and constituted about 33 percent of the population. The Palestinians' presence and predominant ownership of the land were obstacles to the creation of a Jewish state. Moshe Sharett, Israel's second prime minister, said "We have forgotten that we have not come to an empty land to inherit it, but we have come to conquer a country from people inhabiting it."


2. Who devised Plan Dalet?


Top leaders of the Haganah, the leading Zionist underground militia in Palestine at the time, formulated Plan Dalet. One of the key instigators was David Ben-Gurion, who became Israel's first prime minister. A long-time proponent of expelling the Palestinians, 10 years earlier he stated to the Jewish Agency Executive, "I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it."


3. When was Plan Dalet implemented?


Israel has since claimed that it was attacked by surrounding Arab states immediately after its founding on May 14, 1948, and that refugees fled due to the ensuing conflict. In fact, Plan Dalet predated the entrance of the Arab states into war with Israel. Some 250,000 Palestinians were expelled in the two months between the March 10 adoption of Plan Dalet and the establishment of Israel in mid-May. The stream of refugees into the Arab states created pressure on them to intervene to stanch the flow. It is more accurate to say that the refugee flight caused Arab intervention than the other way around.


4. What resulted from Plan Dalet?


Plan Dalet led to the depopulation of at least 450 Palestinian towns and villages, most of which were demolished to prevent the return of the refugees. By the end of 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinians - two-thirds of the Palestinian population - were exiled. It is estimated that more than 50 percent fled under direct military assault. Others fled in panic as news of massacres spread - for example, more than 100 civilians killed in the village of Deir Yassin on April 9 and 200 in Tantura between May 22nd and 23rd.

5. Why is Plan Dalet relevant today?


Israel will commemorate its 60th anniversary this May without acknowledging the ethnic cleansing and dispossession of Palestinians it perpetrated. At the same time, Palestinians will mark their dispossession and remind the world of their right to return to their homeland. An overwhelming majority of Palestinians believes that refugee rights must be remedied for peace between Palestinians and Israelis to endure.



Plan Dalet led to the Nakba or "Catastrophe."


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The Plan Unfolds


Ten Facts about the Nakba


1.The Nakba is a root cause of the Israeli/Palestinian problem.


It is marked on May 14, the date on which Israel declared its independence in 1948.


2. This traumatic event created the Palestinian refugee crisis.


By the end of 1948, two-thirds of the Palestinian population was exiled. It is estimated that more than 50% were driven out under direct military assault. Others fled as news spread of massacres committed by Jewish militias in Palestinian villages like Deir Yassin and Tantura.


3. Jewish leaders saw "transfer" as an important step in the establishment of Israel.


Jewish leaders spoke openly of the need to use military clashes to expel as many Palestinians as possible before other Arab countries could come to their defense. The Haganah militia's Plan Dalet was the blueprint for this ethnic cleansing. Israel's first Prime Minister, David Ben Gurion, said "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." (See what other leading Israelis have said about transfer.)


4. Hundreds of Palestinian villages and towns were destroyed.


Jewish forces depopulated more than 450 Palestinian towns and villages, most of which were demolished.


5. Palestinian property and belongings were simply taken.


The newly established Israeli government confiscated refugee land and properties without respect to Palestinian rights or desires to return to their homes.


Israeli historian Tom Segev reported that: "Entire cities and hundreds of villages left empty were repopulated with new [Jewish] immigrants... Free people - Arabs - had gone into exile and become destitute refugees; destitute refugees - Jews - took the exiles' places in the first step in their lives as free people. One group [Palestinians] lost all they had while the other [Jews] found everything they needed - tables, chairs, closets, pots, pans, plates, sometimes clothes, family albums, books radios, pets....


6. Some Palestinians stayed in what became Israel.


While most Palestinians were driven out, some remained in what became Israel. Although citizens of the new state, they were subject to Israeli military rule until 1966. Today, Palestinian citizens of Israel comprise nearly 20 percent of Israel's population. They have the right to vote and run for office, but more than 20 Israeli laws explicitly privilege Jews over non-Jews. Nearly one-quarter of Israel's Palestinians are "internally displaced" persons, unable to return to the homes and lands that were taken from them.


7. There are still millions of Palestinian refugees dispersed around the world.


Today, there are 4.4 million Palestinian refugees registered as such with the United Nations, and at least another estimated 1 million who are not so registered. Thus a majority of the Palestinian people, around 10 million persons, are refugees.


8. Refugees have internationally-recognized rights.


All refugees enjoy internationally-recognized rights to return to areas from which they have fled or were forced out, to receive compensation for damages, and to either regain their properties or receive compensation and support for voluntary resettlement. This right has been explicitly acknowledged in recent peace agreements in Cambodia, Rwanda, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Guatemala, Northern Ireland, Kosovo, Sierra Leone, Burundi, and Darfur. This right was affirmed for the Palestinians by the United Nations Resolution 194 of 1948. Israel, however, does not allow Palestinian refugees to return, although a Jew from anywhere in the world can settle in Israel.


9. Justly resolving refugee rights is essential to Middle East peace.


An overwhelming majority of Palestinians believes that refugee rights must be fulfilled for peace between Palestinians and Israelis to endure. And according to an August 2007 poll by the Jerusalem Media and Communications Center, nearly 70 percent believe that refugees should be allowed to return to "their original land".


10. The Nakba has implications for Americans.


Israel's ongoing denial of Palestinian rights - and unconditional U.S. financial and diplomatic support for Israel - fuels anti-American sentiment abroad. A 2002 Zogby poll, conducted in eight Arab countries showed that "the negative perception of the United States is based on American policies, not a dislike of the West." The same poll showed that "the Palestinian issue was listed by many Arabs among the political issues that affect them most personally." Resolution of the Palestinian refugee issue would undoubtedly improve America's international image, by proving that the U.S. government supports the consistent application of international law.



Untold Stories


This link will take you to meet Palestinians who lived through the Nakba and recount its details and explain its relevance to Americans.


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Palestinian women walk through the Nahr el-Bared refugee camp in Lebanon in 1951. (UNRWA)


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 12:06:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And how about some mention of the (2.00 / 1)

900,000 plus Jews who were driven out of Arab lands after the Suez crisis?   Their property was confiscated and they have have had no compensation.

We don't hear much about them these days.


by Radiowalla on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 05:21:29 PM EST

Re: And how about some mention of the (2.00 / 2)

Well, y'know, they're Jews.  They've gotten used to being driven out of places by now.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 05:25:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And how about some mention of the (none / 0)

We have even heard the claim that there was a "Jewish nakba," an ethnic cleansing of Jew from over 20 Arab countries after the Zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine of two thirds of its Arab citizens.

It is rubbish.

The emigration of Jews from Arab countries was not forceable. In fact, some Arab countries refused to allow Jews to leave for Israel. Only one country, Yemen, I believe, actually expelled its small Jewish population. It was a wrong. But the emigration of Arab Jews to Israel occurred between 1948 and 1968, was never a forced emigration, and was encouraged by incentives from Israel which was in need of population. Remember that there were only 5-600,000 Jews in Israel in 1948. Yes there were reports of increased anti-Semitic incidents, but there was also reports of Israeli agents sent to foment anti-Semitism to encourage emigration.

The idea of a Jewish ethnic cleansing is propaganda intended to justify the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. Unfortunately, cause and effect does not work in a backward manner. But the point is that it never happened.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 07:39:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And how about some mention of the (none / 0)

PS: For 60 years, Iranian Jews, except for about a hundred, have consistently refused to leave their 3,000 year old existence near and in Tehran. And Israel has offered some quite large incentives for them to leave. As with most Jews in Arab-Muslim countries over the centuries, they feel safe and satisfied with their lives in Iran. For that matter, I am guessing that they have heard about the way Arab Jews are treated in Israel, becoming second class citizens to European Jews, poor, and lacking opportunities to progress in the social order of things.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 07:43:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

not only are you obsessed... (2.00 / 1)

but sadly mistaken.

and you know what - i don't even need a link - I KNOW JEWISH PEOPLE IN RL THAT WERE EXPELLED FROM IRAQ.  the only arab country that jews had a relatively normal existence was morocco.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 09:10:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not only are you obsessed... (none / 0)

Normal existence? Compared to what? Germany or Poland or Austria even before the rise of Nazism, or America after WWI?

There was one Arab country which did expel is Jewish population after 1948: It may have been Iraq, although I thought it was Yemen. Been quite a while